[Translated by Erwin Hoffmann]

A phone call with Joni Mitchell, which looks back on her lifetime awards and explains, why only women understand music

Joni Mitchell just used up two years from her life, to re-order her lifetime awards, aiming to pull out the music for a ballet. Now, the box 'Love has Many Faces' (Rhino) with four CDs has been released, which are realized as ballet in four acts, to be performed on stage soon. She is at home in the Canadian province British Columbia and starting the telephone conversation immediately with a questions.

JM: And? Do you like my box? Did you dig out anything new in my music?

SZ: What strikes me listening five hours, is the Swing, which drives the music.

JM: Because I am a baby of the Swing area. My father was playing trumpet in a Canadian province ball room. The following Rock'n'Roll with electrical guitars killed the brass sections in the first place, but I never got rid of the Swing from this area.

SZ: But Rock'n'Roll also has some Groove

JM: Sure, but when Rock'n'Roll turned to Rock and all went 'white' I lost interest in it. Because - is there anything special within the white music? The waltz, the polka, the march. Maybe even galloping horses.

SZ: When did you start performing with Jazz musicians?

JM: On my album 'Court and Spark' (-- her sixth album, released 1974 --).

SZ: Why?

JM: For five albums I've tried to find a rhythm section able to understand my music. Rock and pop musicians never ever were able to grasp my music neither in their harmonies nor rhythms. Russ Kunkel, a real distinguished percussionist, once told me: 'Joni, you need to play with Jazz musicians'. Well, later I collaborated with the 'L.A. Express' with which I recorded 'Court and Spark'. They really understood the dynamics. My voice was very soft and became occasionally quite powerful. Pop musicians don't have a clue, since pop music depends on compressing the material, in order to allow it to run thru at night and to allow commercial spots to become prominent while spoken.

SZ: Didn't your label go you for hit singles?

JM: I did not want to step into the hit-traps. On the other side, I did only have some very limited budget and lousy deals. Because I was a girl [woman?]. Girls never had it easy within the Jazz.

SZ: Did not Jazz already had strong women quite early?

JM: Yes, but the (male) musicians never respected those. Real bad jokes were raised about female singers. They were tolerated at most. Even Billy Holiday. And she was the best. I've heard recordings, where she never had any control upon. Her opinion was meaningless.

SZ: Did that change?

JM: It never did change.

SZ: But have had played for years with people like Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter and Jaco Pastorius. And those have performed your music dedicated.

JM: That's right. But when Herbie Hancock recorded 'The Joni Letters' years later (2007), somebody forced him to listen to the spoken words as well. And he simply said: 'Is it this, what she is singing?' That is typical for the jazz musicians of this generation.

SZ: What about the younger ones?

JM: They are more versatile. They have been grown up with lyric music and with Jazz and with other music styles as well. Brian Blade, for example, the Jazz percussionist with whom I worked (a lot), was grown up with my music and could play with my words. However, at the time I became teenager, music was strongly coupled to power structures. For instance, I always performed in Folk Clubs. Because I was a girl and played guitar. Therefore, I had to be a folk singer. Even though my music was no folk at all.

SZ: Did you ever played with pop and rock musicians? Did the become also more versatile?

JM: No, not at all. Well, the golden age is really over. The kids sit around and press some buttons instead learning to play guitar. They are lost in a synthetic reality. All I am listening to are copies of copies, which are by them self copies of copies. And with each copy the music is getting weaker; required to fit the brain-damaged listeners [the original wording was less rough, eh.]. This has started in the 80's. They said: Ok, we need some music which fits a 14 year old teenager, falling in love the first time. And then they set up radio stations playing music which sound really like a music clip used to sell the 14 yeur old kids, what they believe to be hype.

SZ: Did bad pop music for teenagers not already exist in the 40's of last century?

JM: Well, but in the 80's it was all going down the drain. The sound became really awful. This crackling, much to much treble. I can't tell whether the producers were on drugs these days. And the kids simply bought the shenanigans and effects. No, music died at the end of the 70ths. To much technology, to many buttons.

SZ: Did you ever tried this by your own?

JM: Sure! I taped 14 albums with 8-track machines and then my young husband bought for 'Dog Eat Dog' (1985) a 56- or 57-track machine. I still have some songs on my album 'Love Has Many Faces', but I was required to remaster them all, in order to get rid of the entire electronic garbage.

SZ: Are those the reasons, why you never worked together with a producer?

JM: Not at all. It was driven by me not to depend on a guy in the studio, telling I do something wrong. Because they automatically assume - since I am a girl - I try something I never can realize. Though I do have a vision. I really know how my music should sound. It's because I am a composer: I'm more like Schubert [German classical composer, eh.] rather a pop start. I hear the music in my head and it needs to be released. Because of this, I don't need help. Except for somebody adjusting the equipment. Thanks a lot.

SZ: What did make your producers actually become disturbed?

JM: I play guitar with an open tunibg. And hey, every time I find a new tune, the chords and the fingering needs to be put together completely in order to work.

SZ: You once said: Men don't understand my chords. Please explain this to me - as a man.

JM: I once had a vibraphone player in the studio. From his behavior I could tell he disliked my music intensively. He meant, everything was completely wrong. Later, I realized, that he even has written a book on Jazz harmonies. Those strong emotional reactions I receive quite often. Because I play open chords and don't let them resolve. It's a men's world and men make the rules. And it is not allowed to use open chords for a longer period.

SZ: Is this dogmatic harmony doctrine not overruled by now? Regarding Arnold Schönberg, Ornette Coleman, and Frank Zappa?

JM: Open chords actually produce complex emotions. Duke Ellington did that. Though he resolved these chords finally. Men don't like complex emotions. Men demand solutions. The are stuck to Moll or Dur. Because they understand that emotionally - oh yeah, this is a sad chord, oh yeah, this is a happy chord. This they have learned at the Berklee College of Music.

SZ: But Jazz did experiment with those chords!

JM: No. Even Wayne Shorter told me not to stay on open chords to long. And in particular not to jump from one open chord to another one. Wayne is a giant of modern Jazz. But he was stuck to rules. My music defines itself outside the rules of Jazz.

SZ: And this is all men business?

JM: A simple example: Given, you are angry about something. Telling this to another man, you get the reply 'do this or do that'. He needs to find a solution. His girlfriend probably simply says 'Oh'. She demonstrates her empathy. This is the same with the open chords.